Rob Bisel On Working With SZA And Grammy Love

SZA is the most nominated artist at this year’s Grammy Awards with nine total nods. As the co-writer, producer, mixer and engineer for the album SOS, Rob Bisel is right there with SZA. For his work with SZA, Bisel has eight nominations this year, including ones for the big three — Song, Record and Album of the Year.

Bisel worked as an engineer for Rick Rubin at Rubin’s Shangri-La studio in Malibu. Rubin sent Bisel to Hawaii to work with SZA in January of 2020. During that time Bisel and SZA formed a bond that they continued while working together during the COVID lockdown.

The result was SOS. Sage Bava and I met with Bisel and his dog Ponzu in his Los Angeles studio to discuss his creative process, his work with SZA, what he learned from Rubin and Kendrick Lamar and much more.

Steve Baltin: Are you going crazy with Grammy stuff already?

Rob Bisel: It’s definitely ramping up. There are a lot of events and stuff next week, various parties and mixer things. So, it’s starting to get there. Yeah, the buzz is starting to pick up for sure.

Baltin: Part of the magic of Grammy Week is the parties and running into people you haven’t seen in a while.

Bisel: Right, it’s super exciting. And it’s a good way to set up your next couple of projects. You never know who’s going to be there. I have a friend, this producer, Earl on the Beat, and he produced the Doja Cat songs, “Paint the Town Red” and “Agoura Hills.” He said he met her at a Grammy party last year and just struck up a conversation. So, it’s good to do the rounds, run into people. You never know what’ll come out of it. So yeah.

Baltin: Who would be your dream person to strike up a collaboration with at a Grammy?

Bisel: Doja Cat would be cool. I don’t know though. I’d love to meet a cool new artist that is doing something exciting. There’s a good chance to find new talent too. So, I’m stoked to get out there and meet some people.

Baltin: Are there specific veins of music that you love to stick to or do you like to explore especially now that music has no genres?

Bisel: I’m trying to do more songwriter-oriented music this coming year. I guess that’s not dissimilar from what I’ve done in the past, but it feels like there’s a lot of good music being made by artists that are like writers’ writers. Someone like Noah Kahan comes to mind, he’s just an A-plus writer. And it’s not uncommon anymore for writers of all different genres that can really carry their own weight when it comes to writing a song, which I don’t think historically has always been the case. It wasn’t uncommon for pop artists to be spoon-fed songs that they had no attachment to.

Baltin: What we have found in talking to so many people that’s been very interesting, and I’d be curious to get your thoughts on this is what’s happened is because there was so much technology, people have now gone in the other direction. And they want a more organic, warmer sound.

Bisel: Million percent. I think we ran into a brick wall on one end of the spectrum of overly processed program music. Especially I think after COVID too, people want music that makes them feel like they’re in a live performance, like in the room with someone else. Not just this alien sort of thing with no soul, no life to it. It’s got to feel like it was made by a human. I think those human connections that can be communicated through music sometimes are more important than ever, just cause of where the world is at right now.

Baltin: Is there one great songwriter that you would have loved to work with?

Bisel: Elliott Smith, for sure. That immediately jumps off the page for me. Every decade, I feel like there would be someone different. But I don’t know, when I think songwriters, he’s someone that, for me, comes to the top of my mind. But, if I really thought about every decade I could spit out a couple different names for you.

Sage Bava: You’ve written some super incredible songs. How does that process influence you as a producer?

Bisel: I’ve been lucky to work with some amazing artists that can write. I really appreciate that. And I don’t take that for granted. I don’t think of myself as a crazy songwriter, but I think I’m good at giving perspective and feedback to good writers and helping challenge and poke holes in whatever they’re doing, hopefully for the better. So yeah, that’s how I see myself fitting into the whole little puzzle there.

Baltin: What do you look for typically when you collaborate with someone, is it something that you feel the chemistry quickly?

Bisel: There’s a lot of intangible stuff for sure. I love working with people that are down to try everything. I like working with people that are down for “dumb ideas” and they’ll even give those a shot. It’s important for everyone in a creative environment for that to be the case, just cause you don’t want to be over-thinking every idea because your dumb idea may end up being the breakthrough genius thing. And if you’re in your own head thinking like, “Oh, so and so who’s sitting five feet away from me is going to think this is stupid.” You’re going to be second guessing and doubting yourself the whole time. This is not a fun headspace to be in when you’re making music with people. So, first and foremost, that comes to mind for me. Yeah.

Bava: What’s been an out there idea that you presented to the circle that stuck?

Bisel: Something that comes to mind, in terms of production and stuff, is this SZA song, “Low.” The core of the beat is actually that accordion sitting right there, and it’s this hard aggressive trap beat. You wouldn’t really think of accordion, that wouldn’t be your first choice of sounds for something like that. I don’t think SZA ever balked at the idea of having an accordion song. The other people that I made that beat with, they didn’t ever stop and think, “Why are we doing this?” They were just down to try stuff. That’s one thing that comes to mind for sure.

Bava: Can you talk a little bit more about your process from writing to mixing and being a multi-instrumentalist, how you bird’s eye something into reality?

Bisel: One thing I work on is being really consistent about making things. I read a really cool interview with Jerry Seinfeld a year or two ago, where he talked about every day he sits down and just writes by himself for one hour. That’s all he does. He isn’t looking at his phone, jus him, a pad of paper and a cup of coffee. There are no distractions. I try to be habitual about sitting down and making stuff and knowing that even a little voice memo you make late at night as you’re going to bed, that could be the core of a song someday. I think I’m pretty good at being able to polish up and get a song across the line.

Baltin: Are there people you feel you’ve learned a lot from in the collaboration process?

Bisel: Yeah, I learned a ton cause I spent several years working at a studio as a studio assistant and an engineer there. I was an assistant for probably six months on the most recent Kendrick [Lamar] album to come out. I learned so much watching his teamwork. They would make several different versions of every song and they’d record horns on something for a day and then they wouldn’t even end up using it. Just seeing the dedication of that team and how willing they were to try a million things even if it almost definitely was never going to see the light of day. And not leaving any creative stone unturned. I’d say that was a really cool experience. I learned a lot from just watching them and I try to keep that in mind as I’m going through revisions of a song or trying alternate versions.

Bava: Do you find that the core instinctual thing that you or the artist that you’re working with has that you started with is where you more often than not return to?

Bisel: That’s the magic of a song usually. I’m trying to always keep that in mind and protect that at all costs. It’s easy to go down the rabbit hole and lose track of that initial spark for something. But I think it’s always super important, especially as you’re “finishing” up a song, to go back and listen to your first version of it or your first demo and just make sure that all these steps you did along the way actually were better. Cause it’s easy to trick yourself into thinking, “Oh I put all this work and time into something, it must be better.” But oftentimes it’s really not. It’s really important to preserve that initial core idea.

Bava: Speaking of vocals and mixing, I want to know more about mixing SZA’s vocals and that turning into you mixing a whole project. What was that whole experience like and what was the magic of that process?

Bisel: it’s honestly her. It’s funny cause I had a handful of people ask me what the gear was, what the plug-ins were, whatever. That stuff helps but it really is her. The best singers, that’s always the case. In my days as a studio assistant, I was lucky enough to be in the room with some legendary singers. I was in a session with Neil Young thinking, “Oh, he just sounds like this. It’s not like an effect or a mic. That’s just Neil.” She has that indescribable quality right out of the gate. I try to do what I can so that when her voice is coming out of the speakers, it’s more palatable to her and feels more in line with how she wants the world to hear her. I try not to get in the way and screw things up too much and get too heavy handed with it.

Bava: I think that’s one of the hardest things to do is not get in the way of something. And that’s like amazing producers they just find the core truth in it. It’s such a marriage though of your energies coming together and that’s the zhuzh.

Bisel: Well said. So often people want to put their stamp on a thing. But I had a realization lately that the “best producers” almost always are the ones that are just working with the best artists. And if you want to get the best song, just put the spotlight on the artist, don’t put the spotlight on yourself. You’ll be a better producer for it, and the spotlight will in turn come back to you because you gave the people what they wanted. They don’t want you, they want them. Hopefully that doesn’t upset too many producers out there, but that’s the truth.

Baltin: Who are the best producers in your opinion?

Bisel: Rick Rubin is an obvious answer there. I learned so much working at his spot in Malibu. I think he’s the master of identifying what makes certain artists, unicorns and not getting in the way of whatever takes your breath away by hearing Johnny Cash singing in his later days. Not diluting that in any way, or what makes the Chili Peppers feel untamed.